Tuning MS45.1

Get detailed info on tuning your DME
jare
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:29 pm

Tuning MS45.1

Postby jare » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:46 pm

Hello,

I'm about to begin tuning my 2003 ZHP with the MS45.1 DME. The engine has a ported head with the m50 intake manifold swapped on and schrick cams as well as intake and headers and custom exhaust. I previously had this engine in a 328i where it was making approx 250whp after tuning the MS42 in it.

After swapping the engine I am noticing large deadspots and what feels like limited power during acceleration. I assume this is the torque limiting in the MS45.1 coming into effect. Does anyone have any tips on tuning the torque limiting tables?
Also, I have a wideband sensor I can use if need be... however I'm wondering if tuning from the factory wideband Lambda sensors on the MS45.1 is just as workable?
Last edited by Renovelo on Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: tags

Tags:

Renovelo
Site Admin
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby Renovelo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:36 pm

Have you tried increasing the values of the ip_tqi_ref table where you feel the dead zones?

Regarding using the factory wideband, user rkneeshaw was able to get a good estimation of this by correlating O2 voltage versus his wideband gauge. He posted this information on a couple of threads:

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showthre ... -AFR-meter
https://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1077008

jare
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:29 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby jare » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:51 pm

Very helpful. Thank you. That’s just what I needed regarding the 02 voltages.

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:40 pm

I have 2 questions,the first is which maps I need to input new data to increase fuel for my Gt30 setup. do I just need to adjust the Maf table for increased airflow and let the computer adjust fuel based on that? Ive slightly decreased the values in IP_Lamb_fl__n to run a little rich WOT but before I increased the kg/hr in ID_maf_tab car was bouncing from running super rich to lean rapidly. haven't been able to drive or log any data since adjusting that maf table to see if that had any affect. am I on the right track or way off?

Renovelo
Site Admin
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby Renovelo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:08 am

Regarding tuning the MAF curve, have you changed the MAF or the diameter of the stock intake pipe? Also, are you still using the stock injector size or are you using bigger injectors?

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Regarding tuning the MAF curve, have you changed the MAF or the diameter of the stock intake pipe? Also, are you still using the stock injector size or are you using bigger injectors?
the stock maf is still in the car currently with 3'' intake pipe, Im hoping to get a grasp on tuning the maf curve because I will utimately be using a ford style slot maf that I have. fuel injectors currently in the car are stock but i have Bosch 630cc injectors ready to install and I understand how to make the neccassary changes there, just havent installed them yet. any advice on how to procede would be greatly appreciated!

Renovelo
Site Admin
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby Renovelo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:39 pm

Okay, since it seems everything is still stock, this is the best way to learn how to tune for both. When tuning for a larger MAF and larger injectors, it's extremely important not to be tuning both at the same time. You want to perfectly dial one in before even thinking about tuning the other one. Otherwise, you'll end up chasing your tail in circles and never find a solution. Truthfully, you can start with either, but we usually recommend starting with the MAF curve since there is only one table to worry about and it's much simpler/faster.

It sounds like you've already started tinkering with the tune a bit, so it's probably best to flash the stock base tune back to your DME. You only want to mess with the MAF curve if you're swapping in a larger MAF. You don't want to touch the MAF curve to account for bigger injectors or to fix a fueling problem. Since it sounds like you're installing a well known MAF, you can start by changing the MAF curve based on the manufacturer's spec sheet. Most likely you'll face your first hurdle here since I'm willing to bet the maximum flow rate of your aftermarket MAF is more than 1024kg/hr. This is the maximum value you can put in the MAF curve for MS45.1. We solved this similar problem for MS42 and MS43 by finding a way to double the maximum flow rate. Unfortunately we haven't done this for MS45.1 yet. However, you may be able to use a resistor to reduce the MAF voltage which will artificially give you more flow rate. This adds a whole other set of complications when tuning that I won't describe here. Another possibility is to increase the diameter of your intake pipe. This also has an effect of increasing the range of your MAF.

Once you solve the max flow rate problem, the procedure for MAF tuning is relatively straightforward. There are two possible methods: keeping the engine in close loop mode or forcing it to open loop mode. When keeping the engine in close loop mode, you'll be monitoring the short term fuel trims to determine if you need to add/remove air flow from your MAF curve. In open loop mode, you'll be monitoring your wideband O2 sensor gauge. The goal here is to be able to run the engine through the entire range of the MAF curve and not have deviations from stoichiometric. This will be more challenging in the higher ranges when the engine might go into open loop.

Once you've perfected the MAF curve, don't touch it ever again! Then focus your attention to fueling changes. Swap in the larger injectors, change the appropriate scalars and zero the base fuel tables. Again, you can do this in either open or close loop mode. You want to make small adjustments to the scalars until your short term fuel trips are mostly near zero (if in closed loop) for the entire usable range of engine load and engine speed. If tuning in open loop mode, monitor your wideband and tweak the scalars until the entire range is near stoichiometric. Afterwards, you'll tweak the base fuel maps to account for any imperfections that the scalars couldn't cover. After you dial these in, you can finally tune the WOT fuel map.

Since you mentioned turbo, I'll briefly talk about your possible second big hurdle: O2 sensor banks. Unless you're somehow planning to keep your engine's dual banks separate in the exhaust stream, you may face some difficulties putting both O2 sensors in the same downpipe. We're not aware of a simple switch like in some other DMEs that allow a conversion to "single bank" control. We haven't messed around with this yet, so this is just a theory but something you should consider before jumping fully into a turbo kit.

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:05 pm

thank you very much for taking the time to explain all of that! that totally clears up my confusion re: MAF. I have found a writeup about which resistor to use with one of the delphi slot MAFs since ill be around 12-1300 kg/hr max +/- the car is in stock configuration now and I want to tackle the maf swap this weekend so I can hopefully do the injector swap the following weekend. one question im trying to figure out now is if I increase the tq values in the table you mentioned to the OP I feel a massive increase in power (how it should with the gt30) vs stock tune. (making sure my afr were good of course.) but I quickly get an error message saying theres too much of a difference between live torque values and one of the set max values. any tips for that?

Renovelo
Site Admin
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby Renovelo » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:35 pm

I'm wondering if this isn't what rkneeshaw is talking about over on E46 fanatics with the intake manifold model. Honestly, we're not sure on this one. I think you'll be headed into uncharted territories with putting a turbo on MS45.1 (save for one well-known tuner of course). If you haven't noticed, there are a ton of maps in MS45.1 dealing with torque calculations! We only put what seemed like the most commonly changed tables in the "Torque" category. You'll likely find many others in the "Uncategorized" section.

What specific DTC is your car throwing?

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:06 am

I'm wondering if this isn't what rkneeshaw is talking about over on E46 fanatics with the intake manifold model. Honestly, we're not sure on this one. I think you'll be headed into uncharted territories with putting a turbo on MS45.1 (save for one well-known tuner of course). If you haven't noticed, there are a ton of maps in MS45.1 dealing with torque calculations! We only put what seemed like the most commonly changed tables in the "Torque" category. You'll likely find many others in the "Uncategorized" section.

What specific DTC is your car throwing?
ive actually been talking with Rkneeshaw about it and hes been very helpful but when I tried to edit the 3 maps he suggested I got a crank/no start situation with no dtc. So I think it probably something im doing wrong and likely will need to experiment with, since him and I are running different systems there only so much that applies but hes been a great help in explaining the logic. Ill grab the specifc DTC today and post back. in the meantime ill definitely start looking more into the uncategorized section of parameters

Renovelo
Site Admin
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby Renovelo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:18 am

Yeah, he really knows his stuff regarding MS45. Which 3 parameters are you changing? Also, out of curiosity, did you install ByteTuner on a VM or native Windows?

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:00 pm

Yeah, he really knows his stuff regarding MS45. Which 3 parameters are you changing? Also, out of curiosity, did you install ByteTuner on a VM or native Windows?
I installed bytetuner on a windows 10 machine not in a VM. I increased the NM values in IP_TQI_ref__n__maf and the car felt great but then through the following codes, when I reflash stock tune its fine and no codes but the torque curve goes flat once torque of about 360nm is reached.

-28b2:engine speed limit reset. odd because I haven't changed the engine speed limit.

-27A1:Throttle controller:start check
Throttle sensor 2:4.24 V
throttle sensor 1:0.78 V


-2796: electronic throttle controller adaptation wrong Voltage Kl87:11.98 V

I don't know what to make of any of that. im assuming something to do with not editing all of the correct tq tables the same percentage increases?
i tried to edit on a new file Ip_tqi_ref_mon and Ip_tqi_ref_mon2 and Ip_tqi_ref__N__maf and raise them all by 20% and the car will crank, not start and throw the same codes.

i tried increasing Ip_tq_max_clu_Max_mon from 400NM to 510NM and same codes, crank.. no start

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:14 pm

edit: the file I had flashed was stock with the exception of increasing IP_TQ_MAX_CLU_MAX_MON to 510nm, I cleared the codes and cranked the car over, then cleared the codes again and cranked the car, only code that came up that time was the same 2796 Throttle controller adaptation wrong.
reflashed stock unaltered file and car starts, runs and drives fine with no codes thrown. of course still have the torque curve going flat around 350-360nm. MAF kg/hr readings continue to increase past the dead zone and afr stays within desired range so I keep coming back to thinking its something to do with the torque limits set from the factory. I went through all of the parameters and made a list of about 30 that pertain to TQ in some manner, im going to type the list up and post it tonight with the hopes that you or Rkneeshaw spot any parameters I should be looking into.

Renovelo
Site Admin
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby Renovelo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:15 pm

Can you send us the files that cause your car not to crank? We just want to be sure this isn’t a problem with the checksums or signatures.

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:09 pm

Yes, definitely is there an email i can send them too?

dbeau
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby dbeau » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:21 pm

I just wanted to update for anybody that may see this in the future, turns out my FPR reference line blew off from boost so I double ziptied both ends of the reference line and started with a fresh copy of the stock file, disabled rear 02,cats,SAP etc. started adding fuel through the desired rpm range in the ip_lamb_fl__n and im starting to feel more power in the rpm range I was experiencing lack of power. datalogs still max out at 360nm TQ so I think I may still need to explore that some more/get on a dyno to see if getting more torque than 360 nm or just getting to 360nm sooner than I was in the rpm range. hope this may help someone and ill continue to update any breakthroughs. one thing I have found is MS45.1 limits injector scaling to approx. 1.988 x the original flow rate so based on calculations I made quickly 440cc injectors would be the largest you can scale in MS45.1

User avatar
josh@severntuning
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:12 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby josh@severntuning » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:24 am

What parameters did you adjust for the secondary O2’s and SAP?

The MS45 ECU can be scaled for any sized injector. I’m running Porsche 997tt injectors (650cc). The correction factor is a time correction... with the stock injectors it is set to 1, and with the Porsche injectors I set it to 0.4 (injector pulsewidth will be 40% of stock).

There are other parameters you could theoretically adjust too, like the parameter that equates MAF (kg/hr) to milliseconds of injector pulsewidth.

rkneeshaw
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:55 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby rkneeshaw » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:33 am

I think the problem you ran into has to do with throttle control. That dip in torque you describe sounds like the throttle plate starting to close (it will, if you reach the high end of air flow that it expects). The torque and mass air setpoint tables are related. Basically you need to tell the DME that you'll be breathing more air.

I added some details in this section here:
https://www.ms4x.net/index.php?title=Si ... plications

Since the torque in the DME is only used for controlling throttle and other things other than ego, I recommend a strategy that adjusts the mass air flow-to-torque relationship so that overall the torque values remain like stock, but you adjust the mass air (and engine load) values to compensate.
Ryan
2003 BMW 330i ZHP
ESS TS2 Supercharger and other goodies

SakhrHendawi
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:49 am

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby SakhrHendawi » Mon May 18, 2020 3:24 pm

The MS45 ECU can be scaled for any sized injector. I’m running Porsche 997tt injectors (650cc). The correction factor is a time correction... with the stock injectors it is set to 1, and with the Porsche injectors I set it to 0.4 (injector pulsewidth will be 40% of stock).
@josh@severntuning can you share with me the parameters you tuned with those injectors? I have the same but I'm facing fueling issues especially on tip-in on Low RPMs and first couple of minutes when the car is cold

I've done the following:
c_ti_as= 0.375
c_ti_min= 0.000
c_ti_min= 0.000
ip_ti_add_dly=
0=3.07
6=3.07
8=3.07
10=1.41
12=1.09
14=0.85
16=0.58
25=0.58

I fiddled with c_ti_min & c_ti_min, and 0 helped a little but still facing issues

User avatar
josh@severntuning
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:12 pm

Re: Tuning MS45.1

Postby josh@severntuning » Tue May 26, 2020 5:46 pm

The MS45 ECU can be scaled for any sized injector. I’m running Porsche 997tt injectors (650cc). The correction factor is a time correction... with the stock injectors it is set to 1, and with the Porsche injectors I set it to 0.4 (injector pulsewidth will be 40% of stock).
@josh@severntuning can you share with me the parameters you tuned with those injectors? I have the same but I'm facing fueling issues especially on tip-in on Low RPMs and first couple of minutes when the car is cold

I've done the following:
c_ti_as= 0.375
c_ti_min= 0.000
c_ti_min= 0.000
ip_ti_add_dly=
0=3.07
6=3.07
8=3.07
10=1.41
12=1.09
14=0.85
16=0.58
25=0.58

I fiddled with c_ti_min & c_ti_min, and 0 helped a little but still facing issues
PM sent.


Return to “DME Tuning Tech”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest