Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

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SilvrBimmr
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Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by SilvrBimmr »

Hello i have recently gotten Bytetuner and have already programmed out the sap and 02 sensors successfully! My next thing to figure out is retarding ignition and keeping injectors on for a certain spectrum of rpm on deceleration. I have been searching all over the file but cant find what to change. Also if any insight on launch control as explained in one of the topics on this form, but finding what to edit is whats holding me back right now. I know that this is a new area of figuring things out but if anyone has a pointer in the right direction that would really help what i want to achieve.
Car: 05' 325i
Thank you all
Renovelo
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by Renovelo »

The engine speed limiter for MS45 is controlled by the ID_N_MAX_AT or ID_N_MAX_MT tables. These are controlled by what appears to be the transmission gear instead of vehicle speed. Therefore, I'm not sure it will be possible to enable launch control the way its done in other Siemens DMEs. You can give it a try though.

Regarding burble tuning, this is usually done by modifying fuel and spark tables, specifically those which control the deceleration (trailing throttle). We haven't tuned any MS45 vehicles for this feature, so it's up to you (and the rest of the MS45 community) to figure it out!
Caleb
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by Caleb »

From what I've found; its easiest to go into the RON 98, and RON93 ignition tables, and set the top row at no load down closer to zero, or even negative if you want it to sound like gunshots. Be careful while dropping the timing to higher negatives (-10 - -28 degrees) because that will wreck havoc on your turbo (If you have one) and exhaust gaskets. That works with manual and SMG cars, however I wouldn't drop the timing after 1500RPM. With automatics I'd stick to changing it in trailing throttle and decel because if I remember correctly the torque converter doesn't fully lock on decel.

And as far as launch control I haven't had any luck with that (Though my car has factory launch control and I haven't seen any way to adjust that)
If you were desperate enough I suppose you could play around with the neutral safety switch and wire in a stutterbox.
"If you ain't first, you're last."
Santii524
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by Santii524 »

Is there any way you can send me a pic of what to change on the top row and is that Basically a 2 step
collin.patricelli
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by collin.patricelli »

As far as I know, on these Siemens DME's there is no way to set up a proper 2-step launch control through manipulating parameters. 2-step demands ignition cut, but there are no parameters in the DME that can turn on an ignition cut style launch control, better know as 2-step. But, a stutter box will permit ignition cut or 2-step to exist. Also another way to achieve those violent gunshot backfires on decel is to retard ignition timing on decel (trailing throttle) and setting the fuel cut RPM to an RPM the engine will never reach, so the car will continue to dump fuel into the cylinders on decel. If you wanna get real crazy, increase fuel injection time on the left most Column (off throttle) in the Warm engine PT tables to get louder pops and bigger flames. Just a small piece of advice, if your vehicle has a stock exhaust, it aint worth it to try and burble tune. with catless headers, you can have so much more fun with a burble tune, and actually get real gunshot levels of volume from pops.
Last edited by collin.patricelli on Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vexil
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by vexil »

I've got the RON 98 and RON 93 maps edited with the top row (lowest load on the MAF) at -8 between 2250 and 5600 RPM, and I've got the overrun state correctly set on trailing throttle. Also tried editing the MAF/rpm trailing throttle map in the ignition section, still not getting any pops.. Have catless headers on my 2004 zhp and a decent tune otherwise, any ideas guys? Still not quite savvy enough to figure this one out..
collin.patricelli
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by collin.patricelli »

from what I have found, the RON maps are only utilized when the vehicle is not in trailing throttle. Adjusting timing numbers in those tables will not change timing when the vehicle is in trailing throttle. The easiest way to get pops on decel is to use the the parameters that control ignition advance trailing throttle fuel cut-off. These parameters determine trailing throttle target ignition timing, even when fuel cut-off is not in effect. There is a method where one can use the RON ignition tables to get pops on decel, but its a bit more complicated than what I described, and I have yet to experimented with that method. It utilizes a set of parameters which set the delay entering trailing throttle, but personally, I believe using the fuel cut-off ignition timing tables is perfectly satisfactory for what you desire.
scrapZHP
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by scrapZHP »

Sorry to revive an old thread but do you know what the name of the parameter is to disable over-run fuel cut-off?
collin.patricelli
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by collin.patricelli »

not sure exactly what it is, but the paramter would have "_puc" (abbreviation for trailing throttle fuel cut-off) in it. It would be under the trailing throttle portion of parameters. Additionally use the 2nd column of the parameters T.O.C. to know the description of each parameter. The desired parameter I believe should be a 1x6 table of rpm, each column identifying a different temperature. Set the rpm values about the rev limiters to turn off the full cut-off. In MS43 the parameter is called ip_n_min_puc. On MS45 it might be slightly different, but MS45 is a more advanced version of MS43 so the desired parameter might be the same as well
scrapZHP
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by scrapZHP »

There is are two settings called LV_PUC under the trailing throttle settings. One is at and one is mt so I assume automatic and manual? Any advice on how much to change the rpm by and for how much of the chart?
scrapZHP
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by scrapZHP »

Tried changing those values, car basically didn't decel because of all the fuel it was getting. Not sure where to go from here.
vexil
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by vexil »

collin.patricelli wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:24 pm from what I have found, the RON maps are only utilized when the vehicle is not in trailing throttle. Adjusting timing numbers in those tables will not change timing when the vehicle is in trailing throttle. The easiest way to get pops on decel is to use the the parameters that control ignition advance trailing throttle fuel cut-off. These parameters determine trailing throttle target ignition timing, even when fuel cut-off is not in effect. There is a method where one can use the RON ignition tables to get pops on decel, but its a bit more complicated than what I described, and I have yet to experimented with that method. It utilizes a set of parameters which set the delay entering trailing throttle, but personally, I believe using the fuel cut-off ignition timing tables is perfectly satisfactory for what you desire.
I have tested just about everything I can think of over the course of a few months now, still to no avail. Do you have more specific instructions @collin.patricelli? I've been through every table that contains "pu" or "puc" looking for the ms45.1's versions of the trailing throttle cutoff ignition tables on the ms43. I know my overrun state is set correctly, but I can't seem to figure out where to retard the timing on fuel cut-off. I know that an ms45.1 burble tune is possible, but it seems like it is a well-kept secret.
collin.patricelli
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by collin.patricelli »

@vexil I'll try my best to disclose what I did to achieve burble tune. On MS43 I used 5 parameters my burble tune/neighborhood terrorist tune. I do not know if these same parameters exist on MS45, but they might just and in that case, you can use my same method to make your own, assuming you have not tried this already. IP_N_MIN_PUC controls what RPMs fuel cut kicks in during trailing throttle, and IP_N_MIN_ACCIN_PUC controls the same thing, just with A/C on. Each column in these parameters correlates to an engine temp. The first step to the burble tune is to turn off fuel cut during trailing throttle. This is accomplished by setting an engine speed safely above the rpm limiters. When the threshold for fuel cut-off is set above the rpm limiter, the engine cannot cross that threshold, and will not cut off fuel during trailing throttle. I set the fuel cut-off thresholds in both of these parameters to 7104 rpm when the engine temp is 60 and 90 degrees C, but opted to leave the factory rpm thresholds for colder engine temps. The next step uses these three tables: IP_IGA_PU, IP_IGA_PUC, and IP_IGA_ACCIN_PUC. These tables control the ignition during trailing throttle. To get pops, retard the timing in these tables to what you think is suitable. I went pretty extreme with the retard, dialing it all the way back to the lowest value the dme permits: -23.6 degrees and the leads to loud pops and bangs. Feel free to use milder timing retard at lower rpm, under 2000 i suggest, In my opinion intense burbles at lower rpms do not sound all that great. Anyways that is the basic jist of MS43 burble tuning. There is one extra thing you can do to spice things up a little, and that is to enrich fuel during trailing throttle. I used the IP_TI_TCO_2_PL_IVVT_1 and IP_TI_TCO_2_PL_IVVT_2 tables to do that. Those control bank one and bank two fuel injection durations. To get louder pops and bigger flames just enrich the values on the left-most column of the two tables. Well, thats all I have to offer. Good luck with your investigations.
vexil
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by vexil »

Thank you for the information, just about the most thorough post I've seen on this so far. Interesting bit on enriching the fuel during trailing throttle for louder pops, will remember that once I've got any pops to speak of.

The equivalent to IP_N_MIN_PUC and IP_N_MIN_ACCIN_PUC on the ms45.1 are ip_n_min_puc__tco__gr_mt and ip_n_accout_min_puc__tco__gr_mt (_at instead of _mt for automatic vehicles). I have the overrun state correctly in these tables, and I've verified that through datalogging.
Image

Now, the real issue I seem to have is finding the equivalent to IP_IGA_PU, IP_IGA_PUC, and IP_IGA_ACCIN_PUC. I've found a few tables that could be of interest, but all seem to be in a very different format than the ms43s. Doesn't appear to be any "PUC" ignition tables that look like anything but correction tables, though.
  • ip_iga_dif_min_tco_pu (8x1 table | Columns: °C | Cells: °CRK)
  • ip_t_iga_min_puc (8x1 table | Columns: RPM | Cells: ???) - Some value between 0.18 and 0.03. I believe this is a correction table.
  • ip_iga_min_n_maf_pu (8x6 table | Columns: RPM | Rows: MAF | Cells: °CRK) - Most promising table I've found. Have tweaked it around a bit, still not producing results. I'll put an image of the unedited table below.
Image

Any ideas?
collin.patricelli
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by collin.patricelli »

Image

those are what my tables look like. the two on the bottom are the fuel-cut threshold tables and the three on top are the trailing throttle ignition timing tables. Yours looks similar enough. Upon translating the abbreviations, the tables looks appropriate. The fact that it is using MAF instead of engine temperature is interesting. In that case, the upper most row would be the row to retard timing on, but you probably know that already. You may just need to try retarding more timing. Could be as simple as that. If that does not work, I would investigate the various parameters that dictate when the engine enters trailing throttle state. There's several parameters i would look at in your situation.
Image
C_N_HYS_MAX_PUC determines how much rpms must drop before entering trailing throttle. With timing retarded enough, zeroing out that value turns on-to-off throttle transitions a violent event sometimes with gunshots, which are fun. But i digress. Of these parameters, IP_IGA_MIN_PUC i think is most important, but its been over a year since I manipulated it. From what I remember, that table will limit how much the engine will retard timing to whatever values are input into the table. For example you input a rowdy -23 degrees into the ip_iga_min_n_maf_pu table, but leave ip_iga_min_puc with only -5 degrees, the engine will never drop below that -5 degree limit to the -23 degrees inputted into the other table.
Now after trying all of this, an you still cannot get it to pop, I would try retarding the timing on the low maf side of the standard ignition tables and using c_n_hys_max_puc or whatever equivalent there is in ms45 to delay trailing throttle state. By doing that, the car will use the retarted ignition you inputted of the standard ignition tables for the how ever much engine speed hysteresis you choose. I hope all of that makes sense. Sometimes my explanations only lead to more confusion. Im trying my best to be thorough and complete in my explanations.
One more thing to add: I would advise to branch out from searching just for "puc" parameters and also look for "pu" which means regular trailing throttle. "puc" denotes trailing throttle fuel cut-off, but there might be another ignition timing for just regular trailing throttle and that table would have "pu". Try looking for an ignition timing table for standard trailing throttle.
100percentjake
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by 100percentjake »

Have you guys confirmed what tables on the MS45 do what with regards to burble? I disabled DFCO and it's the perfect amount of subtle grumble during neutral revs but it doesn't seem to make much difference during decel; i assume because I need some timing or fuelling changes but the sheer amount of tables these ECUs have is a bit boggling
collin.patricelli
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by collin.patricelli »

There’s a table to retard timing on decel from the normal ignition timing maps, but you also have to retard timing from the ron 91 and Ron 98 maps to get louder pops and bangs. I built a successful pops and bangs tune for ms45 a while ago, but I would have to find it again and the way the tune worked was very rudimentary. But it was pretty loud pops and bangs even with cats on
100percentjake
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by 100percentjake »

I pulled a bunch of timing out of the RON98 and 91 maps in the low load cells, but for the life of me I can't find anything relating to decel-specific timing control
collin.patricelli
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by collin.patricelli »

I would experiment with these tables. The three ip_iga_min tables control the lower ignition target limits n various engine running states. Id make at least the _pu version of that table as low as it will go with ignition timing numbers. The last table is a difference table that adds or subtracts ignition timing from the ron 98 and 91 tables during trailing throttle depending on the engine temperature, or at least I think it works that way. I have not used it, but give it a try none the less. I normally tune ms43 and have little ms45 experience. Also forgive different looking tuning program, but the tables should be pretty much identical in Bytetuner name-wise and function-wise. My Bytetuner wont stay open for longer than 90 sec without crashing so I had to hunt these tables down on TunerPro instead. Image
100percentjake
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Re: Ms 45.1 Burble, Launch Control

Post by 100percentjake »

Well I got some sounds out of it. I wish ByteTuner had a better "compare" ability between two tunes so I could figure out what I changed but it seems to be mostly referencing the base 98RON ignition table now. -15 degrees was a decent burble but it doesn't pull the timing above 3000 RPM. Need to look into why that is. Between 1000-3000rpm is highly amusing.
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